Enhance Your Practice Podcast
Enhance Your Practice Podcast
E70 WPS REMIX: Navigating Important Transitions in Your Career
Ashley Amalfi, MD Moderator
Sara Dickie, MD Panelist
Roberta Gartside, MD Panelist
Carmen Kavali, MD Panelist
Deana Shenaq, MD Panelist
Thanks for tuning in to the WPS Remix Edition of the Enhance your Practice podcast brought to you by the ASPS Women Plastic Surgeons Forum. We hope you enjoyed our coverage of the WPS Symposium and gained valuable insights from our guests. Remember to subscribe to our podcast, check out our other episodes on your preferred platform or download them directly from ASPS EdNet. Stay tuned for more exciting updates and expert advice to help you enhance your practice.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to the WPS Remix.
Speaker 2:We are so excited to highlight this amazing panel of superstars that we have from our WPS symposium. So today we are talking about career transitions and there's just so many stages of life as a plastic surgeon and we have someone here covering an expertise in every single one of those. So I have Dr Sarah Dickey, who is going to talk to us about her transition and starting her own private practice. Dr Dina Shanak, who's going to talk about how to be successful early in an academic practice. Dr Carmen Cavalli, who has recently transitioned to adding a partner to her practice and understanding what that mid-career surgeon really looks like, planning for the future.
Speaker 2:And Dr Roberta Gartside, one of our original WPS founders, who is recently retired and enjoying the very best part of her life as a plastic surgeon, and she's going to share with us her pearls as well. So as we get started here, I'd love to just go down the line and have everyone tell us a little bit about what this sort of recent transition in your career has been like and maybe the one thing that you've learned that you could not have predicted about this career transition. So I'm just going to go down the line from my introductions if Dr Sarah Dickey wanted to give it a start.
Speaker 3:Sure, thanks, ashley. I'm Dr Sarah Dickey. I practice in the north side of Chicago and I've been there for about 12 years, from when I graduated residency at the University of Chicago, so I've been in the same location the entire time. You know, my practice started out as a hospital employed practice, which was okay, but it didn't work out great for me. There were too many physicians in the practice and it really wasn't. I wasn't busy enough for the administration, and so I moved on to an employed model where I was with a dermatology practice, so I was their employee, but it was a private practice, and for about six years I got the opportunity to really see what being in private practice was like. But it wasn't my own and it was also a partnership with other specialties, which can be very rewarding.
Speaker 3:But I also found to be a bit draining and a bit lonely and I didn't have much control. And so for me you know I would call myself an early, early mid career, being about 12 years out I decided it was time to decide what I was doing with the rest of my career, you know. So so really, what it is is deciding I'm going to live my life more than have a, not have a practice. What do you want to say? I want to live my have, have the rest of my career be my own, that I really could, could own it and say that I, I, I did it sort of my way and so could own it and say that I did it sort of my way.
Speaker 3:And so I'm now newly in my own solo private practice for almost two years year and a half and I think what's the most surprising thing to me, it's always how little we know about business, but for me it's been how much I thought I was a good leader and a good manager and I found that I really had to improve my communication skills with my team. What I've really found out about myself is what I thought I was strong with Once I became that CEO, that leader, that one only boss. I couldn't pass things off. I couldn't pass conflicts off to anybody else, it had to be me. Things off. I couldn't pass conflicts off to anybody else, it had to be me. And it's been a big learning curve and just how to be a manager.
Speaker 2:So hopefully that answers it. I love that. So much cool stuff to dive into. I'm going to let the other panelists kind of give their backstory, just so the audience knows where everyone's coming from, and then there's so much to dive into. So thank you so much, dr Dickey. Dr Schnack, do you want to tell us a little bit about your early career success?
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thanks so much, ashley. So I am Dina Schnack. I am an assistant professor at Rush, I'm in my sixth year of academic practice and I am focusing on microsurgery. I did my training at the University of Chicago and then a microsurgery fellowship at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. I'm also the residency program director for the last three years and in charge of the breast and microsurgery programs.
Speaker 4:And you know, my career started right out of fellowship when I was recruited to Rush and I'm, you know, in the same job now to basically start a microsurgery program.
Speaker 4:And for me, you know, I didn't really know what that meant.
Speaker 4:I think, like a lot of new graduates, I was just excited to have a job and someone offered me a job in the city where I wanted to be in, where my current significant other was living, and it sounded like a great job and I just signed on the dotted line and I had no idea what it meant to build a program.
Speaker 4:Building an academic program is not something that we are taught in residency. No one sits down and says, hey, these are the steps that you need to succeed. So I learned a lot about hospital politics how to advocate for our program, how to ask for resources, microscope, micro instruments and really what I learned is in my early career is, you know, if you don't ask for things, then you will never have the opportunity to receive them, and I was always a person that just put my head down and worked really hard, but I realized that there were resources that we needed to make our program successful and those were things that I needed to advocate for and ask from our administration early on. So that's sort of one of the most important lessons that I have learned thus far.
Speaker 2:I love that so much good stuff to talk about there. I love how you said all I really wanted was to have a job. And it's amazing because we train for so long and we're just students essentially for so long, and I remember even being excited as a resident to have a resident paycheck and that's like a laughable career, high right, but it is true, and we don't know the first thing about what environment is going to be best for us when we're going out there. So that's why I think it's just so important to hear all these different viewpoints and I appreciate hearing your story, so we'll come back with some questions. Next on on the lineup here I have Dr Carmen Cavalli, who just hired another female surgeon to join her practice, which has been really exciting to watch that rollout. So, dr Cavalli, do you want us to tell us just a little bit about this recent transition for your practice?
Speaker 5:Sure, and this is a fantastic panel because we are all so different in what our original goals were and even in how we've evolved our goals over times. It's really interesting. I never wanted a job. The last thing I wanted was to work for somebody else. I wanted to be my own boss. I thought, you know, I've gone to school all these years and no, I haven't necessarily been taught everything I need to know, or much about leadership or even starting a practice. But you know, I just thought I'm hardheaded enough and stubborn enough and smart enough to make this happen and thankfully, it all worked out. There were plenty of lessons along the way. I think I talked about some of them.
Speaker 5:You know, live on the actual panel, the hiccups getting started, but I've been in solo private practice for 22 years now and over time my priorities evolved. I had a family and now my kids are a junior and senior in high school, so I'm going to have an empty nest in 15 months or so, which is crazy to think about, but I totally intend to chase them around college. And I have become very active with clinical trials, research, and I'm also very active with industry. I'm a trainer and a speaker for an aesthetic company and all of those things have evolved to take up more of my time, but they're things I really enjoy, so I'd already started kind of cutting down my clinical time, taking Mondays off, taking most Tuesdays off off. I say, huh, that's what I when I did all the other things I just listed Right, there's never really free time, but yeah, and then my my father passed away in 2021. And my sister and I, from different states, decided to continue running his small businesses in South Georgia, and so that's yet another different thing on my plate and it was just time to start thinking about what's the future of this practice that I've built. I've got 10 staff. I'm definitely not interested in closing. I'm definitely not interested in walking out of the OR and saying, hey, that was my last case ever, but something had to give.
Speaker 5:There was just not space for every interest that I had to fill my life at the time, and so I started looking around for a partner, and it was about two years in the making after I got serious about it and really started talking to different people and, for various reasons, several people I talked to were obviously not the right fit, not because they weren't great people or great surgeons, but that our goals were really completely different. I've got a completely cosmetic practice. We don't take insurance, so I can't plug in a recon surgeon into my practice because my staff is going to quit if we have to start taking insurance and they have to start dealing with that headache. That's just not what they're used to. So it's really important to find somebody whose professional goals were aligned with the practice that I had already built and that understanding too. I've been told so many times but it is so true, whoever you bring in, it's like another spouse, so you have to be aligned from an ethical standpoint, from a work ethic standpoint and from a personality standpoint. And so I feel like I just struck gold with, uh, with Terry Moak, who was, by the way, recommended to me by no fewer than four plastic surgeons who knew both of us and said you guys have got to get together and it's working out.
Speaker 5:And I think the most surprising, you know, we knew there'd be a lot of differences and I had done my best to prepare the staff for what I thought was going to happen when we added another surgeon. But I was just guessing. I had never added another surgeon to the practice. So I think the most surprising thing is is understanding that you can't really prepare for what you don't know and you haven't been through. All you can do is give your best guess and pray that it all works out the way it's supposed to, and that's what's happening. We've had a little bit of staff turnover related to this transition, but it's all been for the best and the rest of the staff is figuring out how to support both of us and the practice, so it's all good.
Speaker 2:That's interesting and it's nice to hear just your honesty in that process, because there are so many differences and working in a group is just a whole different dynamic or a partnership. You know I have five partners and you know I'm married to five people plus the real one. So, um, that's a whole topic in itself and I think I think let's circle back to that, because I know there's some others who've had experience with that group dynamic and communication too. So, thank you so much. So exciting to learn. I'm learning by your example as we prepare to onboard another doc here too. Um, so it's been wonderful to watch that journey and to learn from you in so many different ways. And then, last but not least, our retired extraordinaire, dr Roberta Gartside, is going to share her happiness.
Speaker 6:Yep, okay. So first of all I don't want to start to sound like you're attending during residency. That said, well in our day, starting things well, I've retired two years. So now it's 35 years ago when I first went into practice. It was a bit different.
Speaker 6:You came out and yet you could get, you know, maybe look at academics or fellowship if that's what you wanted. But if you didn't want a fellowship, there weren't a lot of opportunities. I didn't mention it. I actually tried to get a job at Children's Hospital, since I had trained there but they weren't interested in hiring. Had trained there but they weren't interested in hiring. So it just said, okay, fine, I'll just go start my own practice, which was, you know, learn on the job.
Speaker 6:Yeah, so, and I, like others have said I am glad for all that time that it was my practice and I had the control and I had the say so, my practice and I had the control and I had the say so. So that was one of the you know happy things about the practice. I will say I am in no way unhappy that I am now retired because of you know, health care has changed and just trying to deal. As Carmen says, she doesn't take insurance, but I did and worked in hospitals, so having to deal with all the things that you guys are now dealing with, I'm glad I don't have to do it anymore and despite having retired in my late 60s and knowing that there's still people around me that are like they just keep going, I'm going like why.
Speaker 2:What do you think of that? What do you think of that, Roberta? What's healthy? When we're thinking about the when?
Speaker 6:Well, when I gave the talk, I mean a lot of it has to do with how much do you feel burned out? How well have you financially prepared? Do you have something else that you really want to do? I think people that keep going, sometimes they don't know what else to do with themselves, or they just really like it. I mean because there is a a bit of a loss of identity when you quit practice. Yeah, so, um, and if that's a big part of who you are, you might not want to quit too soon yeah, how did you handle that?
Speaker 2:um, well, you've got all the things.
Speaker 6:It was a bit tough at first, yeah, because for the first several months it was like no, I'm Dr Garthside, I'm sorry, I'm Dr Garthside. Yeah, I don't do that so much anymore. I think it just takes you time to kind of get into the groove of I'm retired with friends. I'm not in the same sphere of colleagues, and that is. That is a bit of a loss sometimes, unless you're really dedicated to getting back into. I'm going to go to the section meetings, which I do do, but you have to get your you're in with your other friends. Now. So to your friends you're not doctor, you're Roberta, so it. But it you get over it. It just takes time. I think it took me about six months or more to kind of get past it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I know you had brought up in your talk at WPS a few of like the surprising things as far as like health care and selling some of the assets of your practice and things like that. What were just a few of the highlights there for people to just start thinking about?
Speaker 6:Well, I think the big thing is is planning. I mean, I could talk about the financial at a separate thing, but in terms of your practice, the I I decided five years ahead of time. And and that's important unless you are an employed physician, which is a bit different, because if you're employed, there's protocols you follow and time constraints and you can give them your one year or your two year notice that well, in two years I'm going to retire. But if it's your practice and you own it, you've got to start a bit earlier and think about you know, do I own my building? Do I own my condo? Am I renting? How much equipment do I have? What am I going to do with my charts?
Speaker 6:And personally, I just started cutting back and getting rid of the biggest. You know, albatross probably that would have been around my neck was my office condo that I owned. It was on a hospital campus, but it does take time to sell real estate. If you're solo, it's different if you're going to develop something with you know another physician and have a transition plan. But if you're it, you've got to look at how am I going to get rid of this?
Speaker 6:And you also have to realize you are the practice right. So you're not going to be able to quote, sell like you think you can like maybe internal medicine. So you're really selling your assets and your charts can be your assets, your website can be your assets. But to try to think of I'm selling the practice right, that's a lot more difficult. So I was lucky enough to be able to sell my charts and website and phone number to somebody which got it off my back, so then I didn't have to save it for seven years and the assets I sold to other people are called up one of these companies that will come pick everything up and put it in an auction companies that will come pick everything up and put it in an auction.
Speaker 2:That's so cool. Yeah, I mean that's so great. I think everyone wishes you know that things would work out smoothly like that. But you're creative and, like you said, you planned, you know. You just didn't wing it and decide. You know this is my last case. I'm done. You had really planned and you knew what you needed to do and I'm just so glad to see you happy and enjoying and still you know doing things like this and engaging with your colleagues. We love, we love having you.
Speaker 2:So many great things came up and again, I want this to be engaging. I don't want you guys to feel like I have to call your name, like we're in school. So if you want to interrupt the other speakers and you know kind of talk about topics, I think we'll get a little more conversational here. You know, the one thing that was brought up by Dr Dickey was that she recognized she didn't like those difficult conversations or handling conflict and learning that about her communication style. I don't know, sarah, if you could talk about that a little bit more, because I certainly share that sentiment and I'd love to kind of hear from the group if anyone else has comments about what it's like all of a sudden being the boss and hiring and firing and giving feedback, and that's the hard stuff that no one really prepares us for and I think some people are maybe naturally good at that, but certainly something that we learn.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean for me, like I said, I'm a friendly person, like I get along with people, and so I thought that I would just be this great boss and what it what it turns out, you know is is a. You know people have said you know you're not friends with your employees, and and I found it's it's kind of sucks, but I found that to be really true. You know, I definitely could be friendly with them and respecting them, of course, but I needed to sort of position myself as the authority, like I needed. I needed to change, to change, not gossip about other employees and unfortunately I'm prone to sometimes doing that and when you're the boss, that is a no-no and learning that and then also just learning to respect how other people work.
Speaker 3:I am a type of person where if someone's going too slow or doing it in a way that I don't think is efficient, I'm just going to take it over and do it. And when you own your own practice, you can't do it Like you can't do everything. It's impossible. Um, a relatively mature practice when I went solo, so we were busy immediately. You know, I I had four employees and we need more, you know it was. So I needed to trust people and let them work.
Speaker 5:That's such a total surgeon thing to just want to. We're all type A, right? That's part of the reason we are who we are right now. So to want things done the way we want them when we want them, more efficiently than we think others can do, it is definitely a fault of mine and I wouldn't be surprised if it's not in general a type A female surgeon sort of thing. And that's also something I had to learn early in my practice as well. Early in my practice I don't do that so much anymore because I realized there's only there are only so many hours in the day and you can't do the bookkeeping and you can't do the daily batch report and you can't keep your eye on the bank account and do all the surgery and manage the staff and do payroll it. Just it's impossible. So you've got to surround yourself with the people who you can empower to do those things and have the right person in the office to make sure that you're not being embezzled.
Speaker 6:That's where it's important that, even though you don't do it, that you know about it, because so many people get into trouble because they don't know how to. Oh well, let me just go in and look at the QuickBooks. I'm not going to do it, but knowing something about all the aspects, but not necessarily being an expert at it, is important If you're going to be the boss.
Speaker 2:That's a good point. That's a good point Just asking the questions so that you can have the oversight instead of having black boxes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have to really know where everything is. You know, like I need a login for everything. I have to know who's in charge of those things, who to ask to for those things, um, and who who my consultants are, even outside of my practice. Who. Who is the expert at that that I can ask to help me understand what I'm looking at? You know because, like you said, absolutely.
Speaker 5:You have the checks and balances in place so that the person holding the credit card isn't the one who also receives the credit card statement and isn't also the one who pays the bill every month. Those have to be different people. So, getting the right controls in place, it's all the little nitty gritty things that have nothing to do with surgery but that make your practice successful over time practice successful over time.
Speaker 4:Sarah, I think what you said about sort of establishing boundaries with those who you work is so important. I found, you know, in my first few years of practice, even in an academic practice, you know, I did an integrated residency and I was teaching independent residents who had been through general surgery, some of them who were older than me, and I think you know, being a newer faculty, setting boundaries for yourself in sort of kind of commanding respect by from the residents. You know it can be difficult when you first start your practice, especially if sometime, you know, early on, you have complications or you may struggle with things in the operating room. And I think establishing that boundary such that you know you don't, you're not overly friendly, so they know that kind of you are their teacher and there is some authority, is kind of is really important as well in your early career.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think that that's something that may be really particular to women I know we've talked about this in other forums but like that delicate balance, right, because I think sometimes we have to work harder to have that authority which I know Sarah said she feels like she's friendly with everyone. I think that's something that I struggle with too. Like we almost have to be overly friendly as women to be embraced, especially in more of that like cutthroat academic hospital kind of environment, and it's just such a hard balance to be that level of nice so that people find you approachable but to also create those boundaries and demand that authority. It's like just such a tightrope and I feel like I'm constantly being pulled into being too close and too friendly. But then I don't want to be like the harsh, you know. You know what surgeon I don't know Does anyone feel that push and pull? I?
Speaker 4:agree If I don't start an email with high exclamation point. Thank you so much. You know, people think I'm upset and sometimes I have 50 emails from multiple residents, administrators or staff people to respond to, and it's just I'm trying to get through them quickly. So there's definitely a delicate balance and I think that we as women, you know we may be tasked a little bit more with finding that balance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I start. I'm always like emailing like hi team Exactly, and I'm like you know this is not, you know this is not summer camp, but I feel like I have to, you know, somehow include a smiley face emoji so that people know that I'm, you know, asking with a smile so I'm with you guys. Has anybody, you know? Still on this communication topic, has anybody felt like they needed any outside guidance or has anyone like worked with a coach or anything like that through these things or help with communication? You know we talked a lot about group dynamics. I just wonder if anyone's had those experiences.
Speaker 5:I haven't used a coach. I mean I'm certain I could benefit from one. But it's interesting. You ask that because Terry, who joined my practice, has done some coaching over the years with a group called Landmark teaching and techniques into the office and actually held what she called a boot camp for the office staff to just kind of reset expectations, reestablish relationships within and among the staff member, reorient some of them to what actually is in their job descriptions and what might not be in their job descriptions, and she used those leadership skills that she had learned to do that.
Speaker 6:It's interesting you mentioned that, because early on with the, the women's group, when these meetings were first started, we were somewhat limited by ASPS on doing clinical work. So we actually did have a woman come in by the name of Jackie Downgardner who did some like group coaching and then did periodic telephone coaching of the group where you know people in academia were saying, well, I get this nurse, I train this nurse, I do really well. And then they come in and go well, our new hire really needs a nurse, so we're going to take your nurse and give it to them and help that person coach them through. No, you're not going to take my nurse. And so people have used coaches. I didn't, but I did find that listening in to some of those group coaching sessions were very helpful.
Speaker 3:I found you know I participated with you, Ashley, that's where we met in Essentials of Leadership. You know I participated with you, ashley, that's where we met in Essentials of Leadership that seminar that is put on by ASPS and I think is really a wonderful opportunity for anyone who has the option to do it. I think back on it a lot because one of the things we did I mean we took sort of the personality test and that sort of thing to find out kind of you know what drives you.
Speaker 3:But we had done another exercise and I can't remember the name of it at the moment, but it basically was learning what kind of leader you are and what kind of follower you are like. Are managers that people are the same type of like employee we would be? So we're managing ourselves, but that's often wrong. And so really what I came back to with EOL was realizing what my employees were needing from me. Like, what did they want to be? Did they need to be micromanaged? Was that actually what they preferred or did? Were they self-starters? Could I give them a task and let them run? Like I really needed to be much better at looking at what their needs were, and I got that from EOL and I was happy about having that in my back pocket Because I didn't know I needed it until, like, I suddenly needed it and that's that's a really good point.
Speaker 2:I've worked with a coach and I found it to be really helpful. I started working for a coach when I was in. You know, just like you're talking, Sarah, about how, when you're leading other people, how do you work with people who come from different places and have different needs For me, you know, in that first example, it was helpful for me to learn how to work with different leaders and you know, their strengths and how best to approach them or to approach conflict or to manage issues or to ask for something.
Speaker 2:So that was really helpful, I think, as an early career surgeon. I don't know if they offer anything like that for you, dina, but it actually wasn't even something that they offered to early career surgeons. I was just having these conflicts and having lots of meetings and just like asking, please help me understand how to navigate this. This is so hard. And they said, well, we can, we can get a coach for the leader. And I was like, well, if, why does the leader need a coach? I need a coach, I would like a coach. And they're like, oh, we usually don't give them to junior faculty. And I said, well, I don't care, I would really benefit from that. You know, help me be the best and navigate this in the best way that I can. So I advocated for it and got it, which was really cool resources out there. I know my husband did something similar in his department applied for some sort of grant funding that gave him a program that he was accepted into that allowed him to have a coach. So I think that it's really a valuable resource. I liked it so much that now that I'm private, I still use a coach and we have now have a coach for some of our other directors on the leadership team so that they can learn how to you know coaching of some kind, or courses or essentials of leadership, or all these different membership benefits that we have. I think all those things are really, really helpful.
Speaker 2:I'm curious to the docs who did not. You know, it's an interesting group here because three of you are still in the same practice that you started in and I think that the statistics I don't know if anyone knows those statistics, that's most of us, you know don't stay in our very first job. And so this transition talk comes up all the time, but I'm curious to like Dr Dickey. Talk comes up all the time, but I'm curious to like Dr Dickey and then Dr Cavalli who, dr Cavalli? You worked for someone for a little bit, or you did not.
Speaker 5:I did not, I tried to office share with independent practices for all of about six weeks.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, you gave it a good college. Try. So is it just me and Sarah, I guess, who changed?
Speaker 4:changed over dina you, this is your first job, right? Yeah, this is my same job, right out of fellowship okay.
Speaker 2:So we are not the statistic, I guess, um, because I think the statistic is that most people don't. But I guess you guys have really good personal insight. You knew what. You knew what you needed. I mean you even said it, carmen. You're like I knew I didn't want to work for anyone, I didn't want someone to give me a job, I wanted to be the boss. But you know, sarah, you know you've had some transitions like how do you know? Like how do you know when it's time to go? How do you start looking for things? I mean, you joined a dermatologist. Like how did that come to be? You know, if people are unhappy, what's your advice for them as to gut check when it's time to go and and where the heck do you go? Right?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean for me personally. I just want. I was like Dina, I think you said, you know I just wanted a job. I figured I could be happy anywhere. I just wanted to make money and, you know, get my paycheck, do my surgeries, go home. I didn't want to manage anything and I took a job which had some red flags, honestly for it, but it was in a location I wanted and it had a nice paycheck and so, but it it. It didn't work out because and I was told to go because the administer, I, wasn't making my salary by the end of my contract. It was a hospital-based practice with too many plastic surgeons in it who didn't share their practices at all, and so, like I was told to go and I was really upset.
Speaker 3:But I have to say, looking back, I wasn't super happy with that practice. I was. I was just kind of floating along just like doing cases that were handed to me and it wasn't. I had no zero control, yeah. And so I had to decide am I going to go find a new job somewhere else? What's important to me and at that point what was important to me was location and I just wanted to stay in my same location. I had no non-compete. So obviously everyone you prioritize in your life, like what are the top two things you want and need and or whatever they are, and you kind of build around that.
Speaker 3:So I joined this Derm practice who was referring people to me and they had a. They were looking for a surgeon, they were looking for a Mohs surgeon, but they got me and they eventually hired a Mohs surgeon and it was a great relationship. For a while it was. It was wonderful working with them and we had a real plan that I was going to become a partner and build up and and and.
Speaker 3:So in this case, that's when I realized I didn't, I couldn't stay was after about four or five years. They kept moving toward their big derm practice, more toward a corporatization type of model and and there was no room for plastics, like it was a derm practice and I kept saying let's make it a multi specialty. You know, let's bring in, you know, v. It was a derm practice and I kept saying let's make it a multi-specialty, you know, let's bring in, you know, vascular and more plastic surgeons. And they just really were too focused on derm, which is their prerogative. But I could see the writing on the wall that everything I asked for was they kept saying, in another couple of years, another couple of years, and I thought you know I only have another couple of years.
Speaker 6:I want to retire Red flags on your first job. What would you say was the biggest red flag that you either noticed later, too late or so?
Speaker 3:I was. I was hired into a group of four established plastic surgeons to a community hospital system. Uh and the and one was a senior pediatric plastic surgeon. This was it did not have a pediatric hospital. Um, he was super subspecialized and the idea was that I was going to take over his niche practice. And so two things. One I didn't look at all for any sort of succession plan. None was given to me. It was just you're going to come work and then in a couple of years I'm going to retire. Nothing happened, okay Whoa. And then the other partners all originally said no to hiring me because they weren't busy enough. And he told them and I knew about this before I signed the contract that it was okay, I was only doing peds. And I said I'm a general plastic surgeon, I can do everything. He said no, no, you'll only do peds. So basically I was taken out of the adult cosmetic pool for new consults and I I knew that was happening but I sort of was like it's okay, they'll protect me.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, that's how we all learn. Right Is telling our stories so that someone else gets that little gut feeling and their red flag goes up, and then we aren't all making the same mistakes.
Speaker 3:I mean and other surgeons told me like don't do it, don't, that's, that's not a good job. And I was like it's great, it's on the North shore.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, that's okay. Sometimes you got to figure it out for yourself, right? You know the other transition that a lot of the people on this call are involved in is is transition into, like other involvement. You know, like when we all come out all we want to do is like sit for our boards and do really well and then start practice and then we kind of don't really think about what life looks like after that and like what fills us up. And you guys have all talked about different things. I know Sarah is, you know, on the board for the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, dina is chair of YPS and is very involved, carmen talked about her involvement with industry and things like that, and Roberta obviously was instrumental in the inception of WPS. So you know, as another transition I suppose that we haven't talked about when and how you know what was your guys' experience in getting involved in other sort of avenues of plastic surgery beyond clinical practice, beyond what your actual practice looks like, but plastic surgery as a whole.
Speaker 6:I mean in with ASPS a lot of us. At first we were making ourselves more visible. Yeah, so you make yourself more visible, you get on the committee, then from the committee you get there. So I mean I finally I went up as far as a you know, a vice president in the society, anything outside. You kind of take the things you've learned from your practices and all and you have to decide well, am I going to be involved in anything else outside of? Like Carmen, you're doing industry and all. I did some nonprofits and boards in in dc um, but it has to do with somebody coming up to you and going well, would you like to do this? And you go. Well, I've never done it before. It's a new opportunity. New opportunity and I think a lot of times is you got to say yes to those things you do and I.
Speaker 5:I should clarify, because I've heard industry tied to my name a couple times, including when I said it but research is the first thing I got involved with, probably 12 years ago. Clinical trials is the type of research I was doing phase three, phase four, pmas and I've got a pivotal study in the works right now. So that's been sort of ongoing and that took randomly. Uh, pfizer found me for an injectable scar treatment years ago. Um, that never came to fruition, but the study happened and that's the first one that got me on the map with other companies and that's how it got started there.
Speaker 5:But I'm also have you know when you talk about, what else are you interested in outside of work? Because even if I'm talking about research, I'm talking about, you know, training and teaching and speaking for a pharmaceutical company. Training and teaching and speaking for a pharmaceutical company. That's still very much related to my work. I'm a strong advocate and I actually founded a national advocacy group called Physicians for Patient Protection that is completely focused on ensuring physician-led care for all patients and to promoting truth and transparency regarding healthcare credentials. I started that back in 2018 after realizing that, you know, through the corporate practice of medicine, a lot of us are losing our access to physicians, and so advocacy has become a big time sink for me, on top of the other things that I had mentioned earlier. So it's kind of like finding your passion projects earlier.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of like finding your passion projects. Yeah, I was just gonna say passion, I was just gonna say passion projects. How did you you know, as a private practitioner, how did you get teach your team about research? Because I think that that's such a cool thing and we should explore that more, like in another format. But we always think about research in an academic setting and when we're approached to do research in a private practice setting, what was that like?
Speaker 5:It was a lot of. I'm just going to answer this question as honestly as I can, but not give too much information that might disqualify myself and I'm going to figure it out. And that's really what happened. And then I figured out, you know, some of the training that needs to be done and I figured out sources for that.
Speaker 5:And if I didn't, if I couldn't figure out sources for the training I actually did, I just asked the sponsor. I'm like hey, do you offer, you know, do you offer, gcp training? Do you offer, you know, do you have a template for the investigator site file that you want me to maintain? And they'll provide a lot of that for you. And then so I did it myself first, as most of us do, right, and then figured out what type of staff I needed and what roles I needed them to fill. So I did train a study coordinator, who's also my MA, and she's fabulous, she's sharp, she was willing to take on more, you know, and I bonus my staff for all the studies that we do, you know, because there's a budget associated with that and there's work for them as well, so it keeps them motivated to, you know, to want to be working on additional studies.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool, that's all like really great advice. Asking for a friend, I would love to hear you know Dina or Dr Dickey to talk about a little bit about their involvement in ASPS and you know just how they got involved, how they got there and any advice that you have for anyone who's looking to make that sort of transition in their career at this point.
Speaker 4:Sure. So my involvement with ASPS actually stems back to when I was a resident at the University of Chicago and my chair at the time was Dr David Song and I kind of watched him go through being ASPS president and you know he always talked so highly of his experience and he would come back from trips and lectures and you know events and meetings and talk to us about his involvement and especially advocacy within our society. And so for me I knew I wanted to be part of this organization. So I applied to be the resident rep to the ASPS and the PSF board and I did not expect to be selected but I was very honored to be and during that time I worked closely with YPS and Aviva Prebinger was the chair at the time and she kind of tasked me with a lot of different projects and it really, you know, kudos to her.
Speaker 4:I was really able to sort of build my involvement within the organization and given opportunities to contribute and I loved being a part of that. And so then I started joining committees and kind of worked my way up in YPS and you know ASPS has been such a big part of my evolution, I feel, as a surgeon and I've met so many great people and have had so many great connections through the organization, and so I really try to advocate for my residents to join committees early on, and you know, just today I sent an email out please don't miss the committee deadline. They're looking for resident reps to the resident council. So I think it's a just a really great way to be in, to get involved with our society, to start as a resident.
Speaker 3:I'd echo that, and I and you know of course I'm I'm a spawn of David Song as well. The same residency program.
Speaker 2:We all have to have a role model in it. You know you have to see someone doing it and be inspired if that is going to be your own passion project.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 3:I mean, I never really thought that I would get involved in ASPS, but then when I was with this Derm group and I was really I, like I said in the beginning, I was a little lonely, you know, like I, I wasn't around other plastic surgeons and I love plastic surgeons, I love plastic surgery, I love, I love my practice.
Speaker 3:I would never choose a different specialty and and getting to the meeting was really where you know, it was like a reunion of sorts with friends past, you know, co-residents, and I really just enjoyed being immersed and surrounded by plastic surgeons again and I think and that's what sort of got me initially involved in the society and then, like Dina with Aviva, like Michelle Routon kept putting me up for things. I'm like, why do I keep getting suggested for, you know, doing this talk or you know, being part of this committee and this and that? And I kept saying yes. As Roberta said, it just kind of got to say yes and I guess it just snowballed from there. I won't go further into it, but I do really appreciate what the society does for our specialty Super well said.
Speaker 2:Well, ladies, talking about so many transitions not just the transitions that we talked about in these lectures at WPS, but different career transitions and passion project transitions and I think that there's something for everyone here.
Speaker 2:Does anyone have anything that they haven't said or any last minute advice before we send off? I just want to make a plug and a thank you for all of you for being so heavily involved in WPS historically, currently, and instrumental in its success. These talks at WPS at the symposium if you haven't been are just phenomenal. They're so honest, they're so raw. It's unlike any meeting experience that you've ever been to. And then, for those of you who can't travel or have other things going on, I think the ability to bring you these webinars is going to be just really great, but hopefully it entices you to come to our meeting. So thank you all so so much for spending an hour with us and sharing your thoughts and insight. Mistakes and successes with everyone listening tonight. Mistakes and successes with everyone listening tonight, and I wish you all well and we will see you soon on another WPS Remix.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in to the WPS Remix edition of the Enhance your Practice podcast brought to you by the ASPS Lemon Plastic Surgeons Forum. We hope you enjoyed our coverage of the WPS Symposium and gained valuable insights from our guests. Remember to subscribe to our podcast, check out our other episodes on your preferred platform or download them directly from ASPS EdNet. Stay tuned for more exciting updates and expert advice to help you enhance your practice.